One of the best things about Santa and Regular Jesus from a parenting perspective is the threatening you get to do with your children.
"If you don't stop hitting your sister, you won't get toys for Christmas!"
And Mormonism allows for even more specific threats:
"If you touch yourself, Jesus won't give you the password and handshake into his super secret He-Man woman-haters clubhouse!"
Now that I don't have any invisible friends left, I was concerned about what to do with my own children.
But I've decided to take the Santa idea to the max. Why stop at Santa and Jesus, when there's a whole host of cool make believe people I can use to threaten my children?
"If you back-talk me again, Dr. Octopus is going to remove one of your kidneys while you sleep."
"Do your homework, or Apocalypse is going to turn you into one of his Four Horsemen. (And not the cool ones either)."
"Brush your teeth, or Batman's not coming to your wedding."
See? So many possibilities.
Sunday, December 11, 2011
Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Mitt Romney and Masturbation
I have had the immense pleasure of speaking with two coworkers and some complete strangers on the Internet about the topic of Romney and masturbation.
You see, peeps, while Mormonism has no shame it IS motivated by embarrassment. If you want to change anything, then you need to create a PR nightmare.
Well, thank you Mormonism for the PR nightmare that is your own disgusting doctrine. And that doctrine is that masturbation is a serious sin that requires confession. And that the confessions start around age 12 while alone with a grown man.
Being guilted, shamed, and manipulated by something that is completely natural and should be private (unless you are with a very special person/stripper) is my personal all time hated thing about my former religion.
And with Romney in a very high profile place and being a former Bishop and Stake President, I LOVE sharing this abusive practice that by all accounts Romney took part in.
My favorite part is the absolute horror that normal people get when I explain to them that Mormonism is more than just a quirky religion with silly beliefs (like any other religion), but there is a festering underbelly that really is concerning to any rational thinking person.
So, it is with immense pleasure that I lay out the doctrine, policy, and procedures dealing with masturbation and confession and then watch the WTF expressions turn even more disgusted as I state the fact that Romney was a bishop and stake president and therefore it is most likely that as a grown man he was alone with children and asked them about their masturbation practices and then took part in the irrational and unscientific guilting and shaming of one of the MOST natural and HUMAN things of our species.
PS - this also really destroys any kind of potential converts.
You see, peeps, while Mormonism has no shame it IS motivated by embarrassment. If you want to change anything, then you need to create a PR nightmare.
Well, thank you Mormonism for the PR nightmare that is your own disgusting doctrine. And that doctrine is that masturbation is a serious sin that requires confession. And that the confessions start around age 12 while alone with a grown man.
Being guilted, shamed, and manipulated by something that is completely natural and should be private (unless you are with a very special person/stripper) is my personal all time hated thing about my former religion.
And with Romney in a very high profile place and being a former Bishop and Stake President, I LOVE sharing this abusive practice that by all accounts Romney took part in.
My favorite part is the absolute horror that normal people get when I explain to them that Mormonism is more than just a quirky religion with silly beliefs (like any other religion), but there is a festering underbelly that really is concerning to any rational thinking person.
So, it is with immense pleasure that I lay out the doctrine, policy, and procedures dealing with masturbation and confession and then watch the WTF expressions turn even more disgusted as I state the fact that Romney was a bishop and stake president and therefore it is most likely that as a grown man he was alone with children and asked them about their masturbation practices and then took part in the irrational and unscientific guilting and shaming of one of the MOST natural and HUMAN things of our species.
PS - this also really destroys any kind of potential converts.
Wednesday, November 9, 2011
Have you Found Jesus Yet?
Although Regular Jesus loves playing hide and go seek his favorite game of all time is:
Hungry hungry hippos.
The whole "don't cast pearls before swine?"
He meant, because you should cast them before hungry hungry hippos.
The whole Judas betrayal started because the only hippo left was the broken pink one.
Regular Jesus totally pwned Judas, and Judas left in a huff because he "always gets the broken one." And then it got worse when Regular Jesus called after saying, "be ye not like unto a giant baby, Judas. Verily, those who aren't poor sports inherit my father's kingdom."
Tuesday, November 8, 2011
Kolobian Theater Presents: Polygamy - God loves pussy playin'
You will be connected to the next available missionary.
Agent [Jimmy] is ready to assist you.
Jimmy: Hi, how are you/
Jimmy: ?
Me: Hi Jimmy
Me: not very well
Me: this is kind of awkward, but is there a sister missionary I can speak with? I just don’t think you’ll understand
Me: no offense
Agent [Alyssa] has joined the chat.
Agent [Jimmy] has left the chat.
Agent [Alyssa] is ready to assist you.
Me: oh thank goodness
Me: Hi Alyssa
Me: are you there?
Alyssa: Hi Jennifer!
Me: oh good
Alyssa: great, how are you?
Me: I just don’t know who else to turn to. I’m not very well
Alyssa: I am sorry to hear that Jennifer! Have you been on here at all today to talk to sisters?
Me: no, my parents just went to the store so I had to wait to get on
Me: I didn’t want them to see that I was asking you questions and give them the satisfaction
Me: they’re not members
Me: in fact they don’t like the church at all
Me: but that’s not why I’m here. I joined the church a few months ago and everything was going fine until my friends started calling me a polygamist
Alyssa: I see
Alyssa: really?
Alyssa: how come?
Me: at first I thought they were just teasing me because of the warren jeffs stuff
Me: I tried to explain to them that that’s not our church
Me: they’re a whole different mormon church
Me: even though they think they’re the right one
Me: but then bobby, this boy I like, told me that our church still practices polygamy too
Me: and I told him that’s not true because it’s against the law
Me: but then he showed me in the library where Dallin H Oaks and Russell M Nelson are both sealed to two women in the temple!
Alyssa: ohh I see… they called your faith a polygamist faith
Me: is that true?
Alyssa: Well Jennifer, it is true. Polygamy is not practiced here anymore… you are right, it is against the law.
Alyssa: Men, however, can be sealed to more than one woman
Me: but that’s polygamy!
Me: :(
Alyssa: It is not called polygamy… we don’t know how it will all span out after this life Jennifer… Our minds can’t comprehend the purposes of God
Alyssa: but, let me ask you this
Me: what?
Alyssa: do you know the Book of Mormon is true?
Alyssa: do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that this church is true?
Alyssa: those are the things that matter Jennifer… we don’t always understand why things are the way they are… but I can promise you we will understand all things after this life
Me: but that’s a total copout! :O
Alyssa: we just have to trust in our Heavenly Father
Me: just because something’s true doesn’t mean it’s right
Me: it’s “true” that hitler was the leader of the Nazis. That doesn’t mean all the germans had to follow him
Me: polygamy is wrong to me
Me: I could never follow that
Me: and I was told that we didn’t do it anymore
Me: but two apostles are practicing it right now!
Me: I feel totally betrayed
Me: would you let your husband marry another woman?
Alyssa: do you believe God will make us suffer after this life?
Me: god suffers all the time
Me: so yeah
Me: but you didn’t answer my question
Me: would you?
Alyssa: not on this earth, no
Alyssa: that is not right
Alyssa: things will be different in the eternities though
Me: so you would in the celestial kingdom?
Alyssa: I trust that God will take care of things
Me: if god’s way of taking care of things were to command you to practice polygamy would you say yes?
Alyssa: yes… I trust Him in all things Jennifer
Alyssa: but, that has come with time
Me: oh my god
Me: so what if polygamy were decriminalized here on earth tomorrow?
Me: would you practice it here?
Alyssa: we trust that God knows things we don’t… He has a purpose for all things
Alyssa: do you trust in Him?
Me: what if that purpose is to subjugate women?
Me: what if god’s purpose is immoral?
Me: there’s no good reason for polygamy to exist. It’s all for men’s benefit and if pretty much just turns women into slaves
Me: I can’t believe I’m having this conversation
Me: can you give me one good reason why your husband would need another wife?
Alyssa: Jennifer, we don’t know how things will work in the eternities
Me: yeah we do
Alyssa: do you believe that God wants us to be miserable?
Me: brigham young said that “the only men who become gods, even the sons of god, are those who enter into polygamy.” I looked it up
Alyssa: after this life?
Me: I don’t think god wants men to be miserable but it doesn’t seem like he cares about women
Me: the book of mormon even says, “men are that they might have joy.” Doesn’t say anything about women
Me: he lets men do all the good stuff
Me: we’re basically breeding cows
Me: it doesn’t make sense
Alyssa: not at all Jennifer… we are the ones that create life… what would this world be without woman?
Me: we can’t do it by ourselves
Alyssa: women*
Me: men have just as much to do with it
Me: it’s not like we’re trees who produce in season
Me: and they get to take part in the pleasure but none of the pain
Me: and it’s not like we’re actually doing anything. Our bodies do all the work. There’s no skill involved. It’s all auto-pilot
Me: we need men to have babies. We need men to translate scriptures. We need men to give us blessings
Me: we need men to run the church
Me: what do we do? Run nursery and relief society?
Alyssa: Jennifer, I know that as women, we are daughters of God. Men and women have different purposes in this life.
Me: it seems like we only have one purpose
Me: make babies
Me: why aren’t there any women in the quorum of the 12?
Alyssa: 1 Corinthians 11:11
Alyssa: talks about this
Me: what does it say?
Me: oh my god. Never mind. I just read it. It says the head of the woman is MAN
Me: and that if we don’t cover our heads we are dishonored
Me: and it says women were created FOR men
Me: that’s terrible
Alyssa: where does it say that?
Me: 1 corinthians 11:2-11
Me: I don’t believe anything paul says. He was a jerk
Me: someone told me he said women shouldn’t speak in church
Alyssa: what?
Alyssa: that is not true
Me: so he was wrong because women speak in church all the time
Me: let me google it
Me: yep
Alyssa: Jennifer, I wish there was something I could say to soften your heart about this, but I just can’t. It is something you need to pray, and even fast about
Alyssa: to ask God for comfort
Alyssa: and understanding
Me: 1 corinthians 14:34-35 “women should remain silent in the churches”
Me: but why should I soften my heart to polygamy? It’s disgusting
Me: why should I let my husband cheat on me just because another man said it was ok?
Alyssa: it is not going to be the same after this life
Alyssa: we don’t know how it will all work out
Me: what will be different?
Alyssa: but it will
Me: am I going to love my husband less?
Me: am I suddenly going to think cheating is okie dokie?
Alyssa: not at all
Me: what could possibly be different after this life?
Alyssa: we don’t really know… that’s where faith comes in… faith in Heavenly Father
Alyssa: when we pass through the veil, our understanding will be opened
Me: but you’re the one who said it will be different. If you don’t know how why would you say that?
Me: what are you basing that on?
Me: so when we pass through the veil suddenly I’ll realize that cheating was always ok?
Alyssa: Jennifer, have you gone to your bishop about this?
Me: it that’s the case why is it wrong here?
Me: he’s a man
Me: of course he’s down for polygamy
Me: conflict of interest
Me: what man wouldn’t be?
Me: it’s us females who get the short end of the stick
Me: I’m starting to think this is all just a scam. I mean, the men at the top of the pyramid get to collect all the tithing money, they don’t have to tell anybody how it’s spent, they get to be sealed to more than one woman, it’s all just very convenient for the men
Me: what do we get out of it?
Alyssa: I am sorry you feel this way to Jennifer
Alyssa: the only advice I can give to you is to find out for yourself
Alyssa: to gain more of a testimony of God’s plan for us
Me: I think I just did
Alyssa: and not worry so much about what will happen after this life
Alyssa: in that aspect
Me: I mean, you’re basically saying you feel the same as I do but you think some magic juju will happen when you die that will make it all ok
Me: that sounds very naïve
Me: what could possibly happen to make it ok for your husband to have sex with another woman? That’s my real question for you
Alyssa: I have had family pass away… and have gained a strong testimony of the after-life… I know that God lives, and that He will take care of us… I can’t doubt it
Alyssa: I can’t convince you Jennifer
Me: that doesn’t answer my question
Alyssa: that’s not what I’m here for
Me: what are you here for then?
Alyssa: to share with people how to come closer to Christ and gain a testimony of their own
Alyssa: we are not here to convince
Me: that’s a total smokescreen. You’re not sharing relevant details about your faith to people who are investigating. There are thousands of churches who help people come closer to Christ and gain a testimony
Me: none of them are down with polygamy
Me: I feel like I’ve been lied to
Me: are you a convert or were you born in the church?
Alyssa: how did you gain a testimony that the church was true?
Alyssa: I was born into the church, but gained my own testimony through experiences I’ve had
Me: by not learning about all this secret doctrine, I guess. I liked what the missionaries had to say but they completely avoided all of this stuff. My dad says they “bait & switched” me
Me: so what experiences did you have that made you think it was ok to share your husband with other women? That’s what I’m interested in knowing. That could help me.
Alyssa: I guess it has come from my experiences with dealing with death in my family… I have never questioned the purpose after this life so much
Me: what does that have to do with polygamy?
Alyssa: I can’t tell you I ever had an “exact” experience making me feel ok with men being able to be sealed to more than one woman
Alyssa: but, through my experiences on my own, I KNOW god will not make us miserable
Alyssa: I trust in Him in ALL things
Me: but god’s miserable all the time
Me: why would we be any different?
Alyssa: I know that He has a purpose for all things
Alyssa: what do you mean by that?
Me: have you ever read the scriptures? He’s always angry and killing people and making people kill each other
Alyssa: no, no, not at all. God is our loving Heavenly Father
Me: you think he was just whistling Dixie when jesus was being tortured? It didn’t upset him at all?
Me: it’s not like he’s on Prozac or anything
Alyssa: Jennifer, are parents miserable all the time?
Me: some are
Alyssa: well I can tell you God is not
Me: most of the ladies in my ward are on anti-depressants
Me: they talk about it all the time
Alyssa: Jennifer, I am sorry I can’t tell you anything that will change your heart
Alyssa: but, will you fast about this tomorrow?
Alyssa: for fast Sunday?
Alyssa: and sincerely ask God to help you understand?
Me: you think starving myself will change my mind about my husband cheating on me?
Alyssa: that’s all I can invite you to do
Alyssa: I am sorry
Me: that’s ok. I think you pretty much told me everything I needed to know
Me: thanks
Alyssa: Jennifer, are you going to let this ruin your testimony?
Alyssa: of the things you have felt?
Me: the god I believe in and have a testimony of is not a god who would condone polygamy
Alyssa: so, you don’t believe in The Bible when men were asked to practice it?
Alyssa: you don’t believe that came from God?
Me: nope. Nor do I believe paul was speaking for god when he said women couldn’t speak in church
Alyssa: you have to remember, The Bible is very symbolic
Alyssa: that doesn’t mean literally by any means
Me: can’t have it both ways
Me: how is being silent “symbolic”?
Me: the book of mormon specifically condemns polygamy
Alyssa: where?
Me: hold on, let me ask google
Me: Jacob 2:24-29
Me: he calls polygamy a “*****dom” and I agree with that.
Alyssa: there were certain times when polygamy was condoned by God
Me: so god changed?
Alyssa: like in Abraham’s time for example
Me: who told you that?
Alyssa: these scriptures are talking about Solomon
Alyssa: right?
Me: david & Solomon, yes
Alyssa: yes
Me: but who told you it was ok for Abraham to have more than one wife?
Alyssa: we read that Abraham had multiple wives in The Bible
Alyssa: He was a prophet of God
Me: and the bible was written by who?
Alyssa: ancient prophets
Me: and what gender were those ancient prophets?
Alyssa: they were male
Me: exactly
Alyssa: so, you only believe certain parts of The Bible?
Me: I definitely don’t believe women should be silent in church. So I don’t believe that part
Me: and I don’t think cheating is ok
Me: so I don’t believe that part
Alyssa: Well, either The Bible is true or it is not… God wouldn’t allow a book to be written about His son it if wasn’t all true
Alyssa: Same with the Book of Mormon
Me: so are you going to stay silent in church tomorrow?
Me: because if the bible is all true you’re not allowed to speak
Me: Paul said so
Me: but you can own slaves if you want. That part must be true also
Alyssa: Jennifer, this is symbolic… in that time, women were not looked at the same as we are today
Alyssa: but, in Genesis, we read very clearly that women and men are equal
Me: what is it symbolic of exactly? You’ve said that twice now
Me: what is “women should remain silent in the churches” symbolic of?
Me: and how was the church in Paul’s time “true” if it subjugated women to a lower status?
Alyssa: think about it like this way
Alyssa: a dollar bill and 4 quarters are different, right?
Me: in material, you mean?
Me: fibers vs. metals?
Alyssa: yes
Me: but the value is the same
Alyssa: yes
Alyssa: exactly
Me: a woman who is allowed to speak in church = $1.00. a woman who cannot speak in church = $.25
Me: not the same value at all
Alyssa: no… a man and a woman have different purposes and are different gender
Alyssa: but the same in value
Me: but there aren’t certain products you can only buy with quarters, and other products you can only buy with a dollar bill. If something costs a dollar, you can use either the dollar bill or the quarters. So your analogy doesn’t work at all
Alyssa: Jennifer, I am sorry, I have to go!
Alyssa: I wish I could continue talking with you
Me: but you don’t want to
Alyssa: but, I really wish you would pray about this for yourself
Alyssa: don’t listen to me
Me: I don’t blame you. You’re probably ashamed for thinking women are less valuable than men
Alyssa: but gain a testimony for yourself
Alyssa: not at all
Me: but I think you’re just as valuable
Alyssa: women are not less valuable
Alyssa: at all
Me: I think you’re allowing MEN to tell you what your purpose should be. You sound like those women who opposed the Equal Rights Amendment because MEN told you that you didn’t need the same rights as them.
Alyssa: no, actually not.
Alyssa: being in relief society has completely helped my view of that
Me: you mean that place the women go because they’re not allowed in priesthood meeting?
Alyssa: have a great night, ok Jennifer?
Alyssa: you will be in my prayers
Me: look, if elohim is sitting on his throne in the star system kolob laughing it up with joseph smith about all these women they’re going to have sex with I say they can take the book of mormon and stick it you-know-where
Alyssa: bye Jennifer :)
Me: Adios Alyssa :):):):):)
The chat session has ended.
Agent [Jimmy] is ready to assist you.
Jimmy: Hi, how are you/
Jimmy: ?
Me: Hi Jimmy
Me: not very well
Me: this is kind of awkward, but is there a sister missionary I can speak with? I just don’t think you’ll understand
Me: no offense
Agent [Alyssa] has joined the chat.
Agent [Jimmy] has left the chat.
Agent [Alyssa] is ready to assist you.
Me: oh thank goodness
Me: Hi Alyssa
Me: are you there?
Alyssa: Hi Jennifer!
Me: oh good
Alyssa: great, how are you?
Me: I just don’t know who else to turn to. I’m not very well
Alyssa: I am sorry to hear that Jennifer! Have you been on here at all today to talk to sisters?
Me: no, my parents just went to the store so I had to wait to get on
Me: I didn’t want them to see that I was asking you questions and give them the satisfaction
Me: they’re not members
Me: in fact they don’t like the church at all
Me: but that’s not why I’m here. I joined the church a few months ago and everything was going fine until my friends started calling me a polygamist
Alyssa: I see
Alyssa: really?
Alyssa: how come?
Me: at first I thought they were just teasing me because of the warren jeffs stuff
Me: I tried to explain to them that that’s not our church
Me: they’re a whole different mormon church
Me: even though they think they’re the right one
Me: but then bobby, this boy I like, told me that our church still practices polygamy too
Me: and I told him that’s not true because it’s against the law
Me: but then he showed me in the library where Dallin H Oaks and Russell M Nelson are both sealed to two women in the temple!
Alyssa: ohh I see… they called your faith a polygamist faith
Me: is that true?
Alyssa: Well Jennifer, it is true. Polygamy is not practiced here anymore… you are right, it is against the law.
Alyssa: Men, however, can be sealed to more than one woman
Me: but that’s polygamy!
Me: :(
Alyssa: It is not called polygamy… we don’t know how it will all span out after this life Jennifer… Our minds can’t comprehend the purposes of God
Alyssa: but, let me ask you this
Me: what?
Alyssa: do you know the Book of Mormon is true?
Alyssa: do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that this church is true?
Alyssa: those are the things that matter Jennifer… we don’t always understand why things are the way they are… but I can promise you we will understand all things after this life
Me: but that’s a total copout! :O
Alyssa: we just have to trust in our Heavenly Father
Me: just because something’s true doesn’t mean it’s right
Me: it’s “true” that hitler was the leader of the Nazis. That doesn’t mean all the germans had to follow him
Me: polygamy is wrong to me
Me: I could never follow that
Me: and I was told that we didn’t do it anymore
Me: but two apostles are practicing it right now!
Me: I feel totally betrayed
Me: would you let your husband marry another woman?
Alyssa: do you believe God will make us suffer after this life?
Me: god suffers all the time
Me: so yeah
Me: but you didn’t answer my question
Me: would you?
Alyssa: not on this earth, no
Alyssa: that is not right
Alyssa: things will be different in the eternities though
Me: so you would in the celestial kingdom?
Alyssa: I trust that God will take care of things
Me: if god’s way of taking care of things were to command you to practice polygamy would you say yes?
Alyssa: yes… I trust Him in all things Jennifer
Alyssa: but, that has come with time
Me: oh my god
Me: so what if polygamy were decriminalized here on earth tomorrow?
Me: would you practice it here?
Alyssa: we trust that God knows things we don’t… He has a purpose for all things
Alyssa: do you trust in Him?
Me: what if that purpose is to subjugate women?
Me: what if god’s purpose is immoral?
Me: there’s no good reason for polygamy to exist. It’s all for men’s benefit and if pretty much just turns women into slaves
Me: I can’t believe I’m having this conversation
Me: can you give me one good reason why your husband would need another wife?
Alyssa: Jennifer, we don’t know how things will work in the eternities
Me: yeah we do
Alyssa: do you believe that God wants us to be miserable?
Me: brigham young said that “the only men who become gods, even the sons of god, are those who enter into polygamy.” I looked it up
Alyssa: after this life?
Me: I don’t think god wants men to be miserable but it doesn’t seem like he cares about women
Me: the book of mormon even says, “men are that they might have joy.” Doesn’t say anything about women
Me: he lets men do all the good stuff
Me: we’re basically breeding cows
Me: it doesn’t make sense
Alyssa: not at all Jennifer… we are the ones that create life… what would this world be without woman?
Me: we can’t do it by ourselves
Alyssa: women*
Me: men have just as much to do with it
Me: it’s not like we’re trees who produce in season
Me: and they get to take part in the pleasure but none of the pain
Me: and it’s not like we’re actually doing anything. Our bodies do all the work. There’s no skill involved. It’s all auto-pilot
Me: we need men to have babies. We need men to translate scriptures. We need men to give us blessings
Me: we need men to run the church
Me: what do we do? Run nursery and relief society?
Alyssa: Jennifer, I know that as women, we are daughters of God. Men and women have different purposes in this life.
Me: it seems like we only have one purpose
Me: make babies
Me: why aren’t there any women in the quorum of the 12?
Alyssa: 1 Corinthians 11:11
Alyssa: talks about this
Me: what does it say?
Me: oh my god. Never mind. I just read it. It says the head of the woman is MAN
Me: and that if we don’t cover our heads we are dishonored
Me: and it says women were created FOR men
Me: that’s terrible
Alyssa: where does it say that?
Me: 1 corinthians 11:2-11
Me: I don’t believe anything paul says. He was a jerk
Me: someone told me he said women shouldn’t speak in church
Alyssa: what?
Alyssa: that is not true
Me: so he was wrong because women speak in church all the time
Me: let me google it
Me: yep
Alyssa: Jennifer, I wish there was something I could say to soften your heart about this, but I just can’t. It is something you need to pray, and even fast about
Alyssa: to ask God for comfort
Alyssa: and understanding
Me: 1 corinthians 14:34-35 “women should remain silent in the churches”
Me: but why should I soften my heart to polygamy? It’s disgusting
Me: why should I let my husband cheat on me just because another man said it was ok?
Alyssa: it is not going to be the same after this life
Alyssa: we don’t know how it will all work out
Me: what will be different?
Alyssa: but it will
Me: am I going to love my husband less?
Me: am I suddenly going to think cheating is okie dokie?
Alyssa: not at all
Me: what could possibly be different after this life?
Alyssa: we don’t really know… that’s where faith comes in… faith in Heavenly Father
Alyssa: when we pass through the veil, our understanding will be opened
Me: but you’re the one who said it will be different. If you don’t know how why would you say that?
Me: what are you basing that on?
Me: so when we pass through the veil suddenly I’ll realize that cheating was always ok?
Alyssa: Jennifer, have you gone to your bishop about this?
Me: it that’s the case why is it wrong here?
Me: he’s a man
Me: of course he’s down for polygamy
Me: conflict of interest
Me: what man wouldn’t be?
Me: it’s us females who get the short end of the stick
Me: I’m starting to think this is all just a scam. I mean, the men at the top of the pyramid get to collect all the tithing money, they don’t have to tell anybody how it’s spent, they get to be sealed to more than one woman, it’s all just very convenient for the men
Me: what do we get out of it?
Alyssa: I am sorry you feel this way to Jennifer
Alyssa: the only advice I can give to you is to find out for yourself
Alyssa: to gain more of a testimony of God’s plan for us
Me: I think I just did
Alyssa: and not worry so much about what will happen after this life
Alyssa: in that aspect
Me: I mean, you’re basically saying you feel the same as I do but you think some magic juju will happen when you die that will make it all ok
Me: that sounds very naïve
Me: what could possibly happen to make it ok for your husband to have sex with another woman? That’s my real question for you
Alyssa: I have had family pass away… and have gained a strong testimony of the after-life… I know that God lives, and that He will take care of us… I can’t doubt it
Alyssa: I can’t convince you Jennifer
Me: that doesn’t answer my question
Alyssa: that’s not what I’m here for
Me: what are you here for then?
Alyssa: to share with people how to come closer to Christ and gain a testimony of their own
Alyssa: we are not here to convince
Me: that’s a total smokescreen. You’re not sharing relevant details about your faith to people who are investigating. There are thousands of churches who help people come closer to Christ and gain a testimony
Me: none of them are down with polygamy
Me: I feel like I’ve been lied to
Me: are you a convert or were you born in the church?
Alyssa: how did you gain a testimony that the church was true?
Alyssa: I was born into the church, but gained my own testimony through experiences I’ve had
Me: by not learning about all this secret doctrine, I guess. I liked what the missionaries had to say but they completely avoided all of this stuff. My dad says they “bait & switched” me
Me: so what experiences did you have that made you think it was ok to share your husband with other women? That’s what I’m interested in knowing. That could help me.
Alyssa: I guess it has come from my experiences with dealing with death in my family… I have never questioned the purpose after this life so much
Me: what does that have to do with polygamy?
Alyssa: I can’t tell you I ever had an “exact” experience making me feel ok with men being able to be sealed to more than one woman
Alyssa: but, through my experiences on my own, I KNOW god will not make us miserable
Alyssa: I trust in Him in ALL things
Me: but god’s miserable all the time
Me: why would we be any different?
Alyssa: I know that He has a purpose for all things
Alyssa: what do you mean by that?
Me: have you ever read the scriptures? He’s always angry and killing people and making people kill each other
Alyssa: no, no, not at all. God is our loving Heavenly Father
Me: you think he was just whistling Dixie when jesus was being tortured? It didn’t upset him at all?
Me: it’s not like he’s on Prozac or anything
Alyssa: Jennifer, are parents miserable all the time?
Me: some are
Alyssa: well I can tell you God is not
Me: most of the ladies in my ward are on anti-depressants
Me: they talk about it all the time
Alyssa: Jennifer, I am sorry I can’t tell you anything that will change your heart
Alyssa: but, will you fast about this tomorrow?
Alyssa: for fast Sunday?
Alyssa: and sincerely ask God to help you understand?
Me: you think starving myself will change my mind about my husband cheating on me?
Alyssa: that’s all I can invite you to do
Alyssa: I am sorry
Me: that’s ok. I think you pretty much told me everything I needed to know
Me: thanks
Alyssa: Jennifer, are you going to let this ruin your testimony?
Alyssa: of the things you have felt?
Me: the god I believe in and have a testimony of is not a god who would condone polygamy
Alyssa: so, you don’t believe in The Bible when men were asked to practice it?
Alyssa: you don’t believe that came from God?
Me: nope. Nor do I believe paul was speaking for god when he said women couldn’t speak in church
Alyssa: you have to remember, The Bible is very symbolic
Alyssa: that doesn’t mean literally by any means
Me: can’t have it both ways
Me: how is being silent “symbolic”?
Me: the book of mormon specifically condemns polygamy
Alyssa: where?
Me: hold on, let me ask google
Me: Jacob 2:24-29
Me: he calls polygamy a “*****dom” and I agree with that.
Alyssa: there were certain times when polygamy was condoned by God
Me: so god changed?
Alyssa: like in Abraham’s time for example
Me: who told you that?
Alyssa: these scriptures are talking about Solomon
Alyssa: right?
Me: david & Solomon, yes
Alyssa: yes
Me: but who told you it was ok for Abraham to have more than one wife?
Alyssa: we read that Abraham had multiple wives in The Bible
Alyssa: He was a prophet of God
Me: and the bible was written by who?
Alyssa: ancient prophets
Me: and what gender were those ancient prophets?
Alyssa: they were male
Me: exactly
Alyssa: so, you only believe certain parts of The Bible?
Me: I definitely don’t believe women should be silent in church. So I don’t believe that part
Me: and I don’t think cheating is ok
Me: so I don’t believe that part
Alyssa: Well, either The Bible is true or it is not… God wouldn’t allow a book to be written about His son it if wasn’t all true
Alyssa: Same with the Book of Mormon
Me: so are you going to stay silent in church tomorrow?
Me: because if the bible is all true you’re not allowed to speak
Me: Paul said so
Me: but you can own slaves if you want. That part must be true also
Alyssa: Jennifer, this is symbolic… in that time, women were not looked at the same as we are today
Alyssa: but, in Genesis, we read very clearly that women and men are equal
Me: what is it symbolic of exactly? You’ve said that twice now
Me: what is “women should remain silent in the churches” symbolic of?
Me: and how was the church in Paul’s time “true” if it subjugated women to a lower status?
Alyssa: think about it like this way
Alyssa: a dollar bill and 4 quarters are different, right?
Me: in material, you mean?
Me: fibers vs. metals?
Alyssa: yes
Me: but the value is the same
Alyssa: yes
Alyssa: exactly
Me: a woman who is allowed to speak in church = $1.00. a woman who cannot speak in church = $.25
Me: not the same value at all
Alyssa: no… a man and a woman have different purposes and are different gender
Alyssa: but the same in value
Me: but there aren’t certain products you can only buy with quarters, and other products you can only buy with a dollar bill. If something costs a dollar, you can use either the dollar bill or the quarters. So your analogy doesn’t work at all
Alyssa: Jennifer, I am sorry, I have to go!
Alyssa: I wish I could continue talking with you
Me: but you don’t want to
Alyssa: but, I really wish you would pray about this for yourself
Alyssa: don’t listen to me
Me: I don’t blame you. You’re probably ashamed for thinking women are less valuable than men
Alyssa: but gain a testimony for yourself
Alyssa: not at all
Me: but I think you’re just as valuable
Alyssa: women are not less valuable
Alyssa: at all
Me: I think you’re allowing MEN to tell you what your purpose should be. You sound like those women who opposed the Equal Rights Amendment because MEN told you that you didn’t need the same rights as them.
Alyssa: no, actually not.
Alyssa: being in relief society has completely helped my view of that
Me: you mean that place the women go because they’re not allowed in priesthood meeting?
Alyssa: have a great night, ok Jennifer?
Alyssa: you will be in my prayers
Me: look, if elohim is sitting on his throne in the star system kolob laughing it up with joseph smith about all these women they’re going to have sex with I say they can take the book of mormon and stick it you-know-where
Alyssa: bye Jennifer :)
Me: Adios Alyssa :):):):):)
The chat session has ended.
Monday, November 7, 2011
Kolobian Theater Presents: Why are we here on Earth?
A missionary will be with you shortly.
Agent [Jared] is ready to assist you.
Jared: Hello, my name is Jared
Jared: How can I help you?
Me: Hi Jared, I have some questions I hope you can answer
Me: I’ve been investigating the church on and off for a few years now
Me: Yeah, I’m crazy like that :P
Me: first I started going with my ex-boyfriend, then he went on a mission and we lost touch
Me: hold on, my boss is coming. Sorry :(
Me: ok, I’m good
Me: I’ve been thinking about the plan of happiness lately and I feel like I just don’t understand the purpose to life
Me: according to church doctrine, I mean
Me: I just don’t understand the church’s stance on why we’re here on earth
Jared: Hello, sorry about the wait
Me: it’s ok
Jared: So, after your bf left you stopped going to church and learning about it?
Me: no, that’s a longer story. I made friends while I was going and I attended for another year after that. Haven’t been for about 6 months but that’s because I moved and I haven’t even tried learning where the single’s ward is here
Jared: Can we make a deal?
Me: I can’t commit to a deal until I know the terms, lol
Jared: Ok… the terms will be found in me telling you what the deal is.
Me: ok, what’s the deal?
Jared: So, I will answer your questions, gladly, but will you commit to not only finding the singles’ ward, but also attending it.
Me: it’s a deal. I need some good friends in my life anyway
Me: so back to business
Me: why are we here on earth?
Jared: Great! Okay, so…
Jared: We are here on earth to #1 receive a body. #2 to learn and grow, #3 to be happy :)
Me: ok, so 1: elohim has a body on his planet, so why couldn’t we have bodies there? 2: why couldn’t we learn and grow on elohim’s planet? And 3: why couldn’t we be happy on elohim’s planet?
Jared: In order for us to progress we needed to come to this planet.
Jared: I don’t know why we couldn’t do it up there.
Me: but why, specifically? Because the reasons you cited can be accomplished on the other planet
Jared: I can safely assume that it is part of Heavenly Father’s plan for us to come here
Me: ok, so basically the answer to why we’re here is: we don’t know but we have faith that it is part of god’s plan
Jared: No, we do know exactly why we’re here
Jared: I told you why
Jared: Those three reasons I mentioned
Me: but those three reasons could be accomplished on the other planet. My question is specifically why we’re here on “earth”
Jared: What makes you believe that the Lord’s plan could have been accomplished on the “other planet?”
Me: because it meets the same conditions: it is physical, so we could have had bodies there; we were learning and growing there; we were happy there
Jared: Yes, but we came to a wall, per say, and in order to further progress, we needed to come here to receive our bodies. We don’t know that we could have had bodies there. Obviously we couldn’t because we came here to earth.
Jared: Obviously “earths” are important because the Lord has made trillions of them
Me: well, we know for a fact that elohim and his wives have bodies. So there’s no reason we couldn’t also have bodies there, right?
Jared: They are celestialized. There is a large difference
Me: only in material
Me: flesh, bone, and blood vs. superman flesh and bone
Me: but it’s all matter
Jared: They do have bodies of flesh and bone, however they are celestialized. It’s really that simple. We need to just accept that fact.
Me: I can accept that elohim has a celestial body. That’s no problem. But that doesn’t answer why we weren’t able to stay on his planet and get our bodies there
Me: since we’re going back there when we’re done anyway
Jared: What are you hoping to gain by this conversation? I am telling you what the plan is, but you not accepting the facts. We can see that us coming here is part of the process. We needed to experience specific things here on earth, that we wouldn’t have been able to experience in God’s presence.
Me: the glory of god is intelligence. I’m trying to gain understanding. You say we needed to experience specific things here on earth that we wouldn’t have been able to experience in god’s presence. There must be something more than just a body
Me: ‘cause if it was just a body we could have stayed there
Me: and we could’ve gotten a celestial body
Me: which is supposed to be even better than these meatsacks we’re walking around in, lol :)
Me: hello?
Jared: sorry
Jared: What is your question?
Jared: I have answered you and explained.
Jared: We needed to experience specific things here on earth, that we wouldn’t have been able to experience in God’s presence.
Jared: Like grief and pain
Jared: so that we would know what peace and joy was
Me: ok, but we experienced grief and pain during the war in heaven, right?
Me: we weren’t happy about 1/3 of everybody following Lucifer
Me: and we wouldn’t have known to follow elohim’s plan if the spirit hadn’t testified to us that it was right, so we were able to feel peace and joy
Jared: First off, we don’t refer to Heavenly Father as Elohim, so please stop saying it.
Jared: That is his name, yes, but it is sacred
Me: I didn’t mean to offend you
Jared: I know, I am not offened. I just wanted you to be aware. :)
Me: ok, can I shorten it to HF?
Jared: In this context, sure. Or you can just say God.
Me: Right on. So we wouldn’t have known to follow HF’s plan if the spirit hadn’t testified to us that it was right, so we were able to feel peace and joy. So on HF’s planet we had choices between good and evil, and the option to get bodies.
Jared: Julia, I can see that you enjoy knowledge, as do I, but it is very important to not keep thinking about things that we cannot answer here. It brings me peace to know that I will receive answers to the questions that I have.
Me: and we had spirit bodies, which joseph smith said is also matter, just more fine
Me: but if we can’t answer them what’s the point of having prophets? If there are unanswered questions that means they’re not doing their job, right?
Jared: God reveals his PLAN through his prophets. He tells us through them the things that we need to know and do in order to be happy here on earth, become clean, and then return to his presence.
Me: but the plan as currently revealed has a hugh gap in it. It hasn’t been able to answer the MOST BASIC of questions: why are we here on earth? All the reasons you gave earlier could have been, and were accomplished on HF’s planet
Me: huge*
Jared: Here’s an analogy
Jared: Growing up in your parents’ home will teach you many things, but it isn’t until you leave home that you can really learn what it means to be on your own. It is in the being on your own that you learn many more things. You can grow leaps and bounds.
Me: but we’re not on our own. That analogy doesn’t work because we have prophets who speak for the lord and tell us what he wants us to do. Your analogy only works if when you leave home one of your brothers follows you around on a walkie talkie to your parents and is constantly telling you what your parents want you to do. How do you grow that way?
Jared: You are impossible.
Me: excuse me?
Me: what a terrible thing to say!
Jared:…to explain things to
Jared: haha
Jared: Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing
Me: I’m just saying the analogy doesn’t work because we’re not really on our own
Jared: It makes me search for more ways to best explain truth to you
Me: if we were on our own we would have no prophets and no knowledge of a plan or any commandments
Jared: That is true.
Me: having prophets is absolutely no different than having jesus here
Me: right?
Jared: the Lord uses them to teach us because it is VERY hard to live here… on our own.
Me: there’s no difference between Thomas monson and jesus when Thomas monson is speaking for the lord
Me: and since mormons claim they have a perfect knowledge through the holy ghost that he is a prophet there is no faith involved. It’s no different than being back in the star system kolob
Me: except maybe the sky’s a different color. We don’t know that
Me: the only problem is that for some reason the prophets aren’t revealing incredibly relevant parts of the plan
Jared: The prophets are like a cell phone call home, you can say
Jared: They’re not like your lil’ bro following you around
Me: no, the holy ghost is like a cell phone calling home. The prophets are like brothers following you around speaking for your parents
Jared: What do you want from this chat?
Me: the ever-elusive answer to: why are we really here on this earth?
Jared: Okay, can you summarize what my answer to that has been so far?
Me: Sure
Me: 1. To get a body, which we could have gotten back home.
Me: 2. To be faced with good and evil choices, which we were back home
Me: 3. To learn & grow, which we did back home
Me: 4. To be happy, which we were back home
Me: 5. To have experiences (so far undisclosed) that we couldn’t have back home
Me: I think that’s it
Me: are we still connected?
Jared: yeah, we’re still connected
Jared: Numbers 3 and 4, I’ll agree with
Jared: But number 2…
Me: Lucifer’s plan vs. Jehova’s plan?
Jared: Having forgotten our premortal life and having to proceed by faith makes those decisions a whole different ballgame than they would have been back there with full knowledge.
Jared: And it’s that proceeding by faith that helps us grow
Jared: And as stated before, we may not know exactly why, but we don’t believe getting a body was possible back in Heavenly Father’s presence.
Me: but you’ve been told about your pre-mortal life and with the holy ghost there’s no faith required, and joseph smith said that spirit is matter, only more fine & pure so we definitely had bodies back home. We also know that evil can reside in the presence of the lord so that’s not an issue either.
Jared: No, we know that evil cannot reside in the presence of the Lord.
Me: are you sure? Isn’t Lucifer evil?
Jared: Yes, Lucifer is evil but he was cast out.
Me: Check out Job 1:6-12. It’s very clear that Lucifer still holds court with the lord whenever he pleases.
Jared: Well, I’m not sure how else to help you, honestly… I’ve been trying and it doesn’t seem like I have the answers you’re looking for. How much have you prayed about these concerns?
Me: a whole lot, still nothing
Me: and Thomas monson is decidedly quiet, as well
Me: maybe his cell phone is busted. lol. (just kidding)
Jared: Well, let’s think about it.. if you haven’t been going to church, putting forth the effort and proving your faith, do you think that you’re going to get many answers?
Me: that’s placing the cart before the horse. Why should I have to attend a church before I know it’s the right one? I would have to necessarily attend all churches if that were the case
Jared: Because you’re praying about this specific one!
Me: why is the holy ghost discriminating against me just because I’m not going to a single’s ward?
Jared: You need to put forth the effort. Test the Lord in these things. If you want to know that something is true or not you need to just simply live that commandment. Then the holy ghost will testify of the truth of it to you
Me: that’s backwards
Jared: No it’s not, my friend
Me: why don’t I do the same for Islam, then? I should test out Allah?
Me: take a pilgrimage to Mecca?
Me: that’s a double standard
Jared: How is it backwards? Do explain?
Me: Moroni simply says ask god in faith in the name of Christ and the holy ghost will tell you what’s up
Me: he hasn’t
Me: I’ve prayed numerous times, too many to count
Me: still nothing
Me: it’s HF’s silence that got me to start looking deeper into the doctrine
Jared: Ask God in FAITH. Faith without works is dead. In other words if you’re not putting forth the effort to learn; i.e., go to church, be around other saints, read the Book of Mormon, etc. then you are not praying in faith, essentially. Read Alma 32 again. The desire that you have had to learn about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is just the beginning. As you exercise your faith, then that desire will grow and grow. Your roots will grow deeper and deeper
Me: ok, well I’ve read the book of mormon several times, the D&C twice, the pearl of great price at least ten times, the bible 4 times all the way through; I’ve pondered all of it (obviously); I attended church for two years; I was around other members; and still nothing
Me: you’re shifting the burden of proof
Me: if the holy ghost answering my prayer is proof the book of mormon is true, then the holy ghost not answering my prayer is necessarily proof that the book of mormon is not true
Me: to say otherwise would be special pleading
Jared: Have you tried fasting?
Me: of course I’ve tried fasting
Me: I attended for 2 years. That’s like 24 fast & testimony meetings
Me: not that I attended every single one
Me: but yes, I tried my best and after all I could do I still got nothing
Me: did you ever get an answer to your prayers?
Jared: I have gotten answers to my prayers, yes. I do know that Jesus is the Christ. I do know that Heavenly Father is our father. I do know that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are words of God. Yes, Julia, I have received an answer. I honestly do not think about the things that I cannot get an answer to RIGHT NOW. I look at how simple the gospel is and take it for face value.
Me: so HF told you the book of mormon is true?
Jared: Yes
Jared: Yes he has..I cannot believe that you haven’t felt it
Me: how did you know it was really him? What happened?
Jared: I can’t really explain it. Simply put, it is just a pure peaceful feeling.
Me: so it’s emotional
Me: so you prayed and felt peaceful and took that as a sign?
Jared: I didn’t just take that as a “sign.” I prayed and just knew it was true. The way I can explain it to you is, like when you are learning something in school and all of a sudden you “get it.” The feeling that comes when you “get it.” That’s what I felt.
Jared: Along with that comes an absolute feeling of peace and comfort
Jared: It is a process, learning how to recognize the spirit
Me: ok but insight, peace, and comfort all come from your brain
Me: how can you know for sure, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it’s not all in your head?
Jared: Because it’s not in my head. It’s something I feel in my bossom
Me: something you “feel” in your bosom is electrical signals interpreted by your brain
Me: and hindus have known about the heart chakra for thousands of years
Me: it’s in the middle of your chest and burns when you quiet your mind
Me: it takes less than a minute. You can try it now
Jared: The only conclusion that I have come to is that you are using your brain way too much in efforts to get answers to things that only can be given to you via the spirit
Me: but you just said the spirit gave you feelings that can only be interpreted by the brain
Jared: You said that, not me
Me: how can you use your brain “too much?”
Me: don’t you see how that sounds?
Jared: Listen Julia. I have enjoyed this conversation, but I am unable to help you. Sorry
Me: ok, will since you weren’t able to actually answer my question you’re broken our deal and I don’t have to attend single’s ward
Jared: That is your choice
Jared: Have a nice weekend.
Me: It’s Elohim’s choice
Jared: yours
Me: quiet as he is
Jared: One day you will accept the truth
Me: he must be getting a kick out of this
Me: is that a threat?
Me: typical
Jared: One day you will see
Me: oOoOoO
Jared: Truth is truth. Since I know that I know that you will know one day
Me: but you don’t know it
Jared: I do
Me: you only believe that it’s not all in your head
Me: but you can’t prove it
Me: I can prove that it’s all in your head, though
Jared: I cannot scientifically explain anything to you, but I can explain how I feel.
Me: feelings are scientific
Me: it’s called a positive reinforcement feedback loop
Me: you set up a confirmation bias
Me: you were programmed to know what you should feel
Me: and that’s what you felt
Me: SURPRISE!
Jared: Ok
Jared: what about everyone else
Jared: Were they programmed
Jared: The 14+million world wide
Jared:???
Me: “everyone else” as in the hundreds of millions of muslims who read the kuran, pray to Allah, and receive a testimony that “there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet?”
Me: arguments from popularity are a logical fallacy
Me: and your population is .002% of the world
Jared: Muslims are muslims mainly because they are threatened if they change
Me: so are kolobians
Me: were you born in the church?
Jared: that doesn’t matter
Me: I’ll take that as a yes?
Jared: ok
Me: where in the world did you find the courage to believe EXACTLY what your parents told you to?
Me: how old were you when you bore your first testimony?
Me: 5?
Me: in primary, right?
Jared: Julia, you don’t know me. You don’t know my family life.
Me: that’s called brainwashing
Me: ok, then answer me this:
Me: did you ever “bear your testimony” before you received your so-called witness from the spirit?
Jared: I have to go, sorry.
The chat session has ended.
Agent [Jared] is ready to assist you.
Jared: Hello, my name is Jared
Jared: How can I help you?
Me: Hi Jared, I have some questions I hope you can answer
Me: I’ve been investigating the church on and off for a few years now
Me: Yeah, I’m crazy like that :P
Me: first I started going with my ex-boyfriend, then he went on a mission and we lost touch
Me: hold on, my boss is coming. Sorry :(
Me: ok, I’m good
Me: I’ve been thinking about the plan of happiness lately and I feel like I just don’t understand the purpose to life
Me: according to church doctrine, I mean
Me: I just don’t understand the church’s stance on why we’re here on earth
Jared: Hello, sorry about the wait
Me: it’s ok
Jared: So, after your bf left you stopped going to church and learning about it?
Me: no, that’s a longer story. I made friends while I was going and I attended for another year after that. Haven’t been for about 6 months but that’s because I moved and I haven’t even tried learning where the single’s ward is here
Jared: Can we make a deal?
Me: I can’t commit to a deal until I know the terms, lol
Jared: Ok… the terms will be found in me telling you what the deal is.
Me: ok, what’s the deal?
Jared: So, I will answer your questions, gladly, but will you commit to not only finding the singles’ ward, but also attending it.
Me: it’s a deal. I need some good friends in my life anyway
Me: so back to business
Me: why are we here on earth?
Jared: Great! Okay, so…
Jared: We are here on earth to #1 receive a body. #2 to learn and grow, #3 to be happy :)
Me: ok, so 1: elohim has a body on his planet, so why couldn’t we have bodies there? 2: why couldn’t we learn and grow on elohim’s planet? And 3: why couldn’t we be happy on elohim’s planet?
Jared: In order for us to progress we needed to come to this planet.
Jared: I don’t know why we couldn’t do it up there.
Me: but why, specifically? Because the reasons you cited can be accomplished on the other planet
Jared: I can safely assume that it is part of Heavenly Father’s plan for us to come here
Me: ok, so basically the answer to why we’re here is: we don’t know but we have faith that it is part of god’s plan
Jared: No, we do know exactly why we’re here
Jared: I told you why
Jared: Those three reasons I mentioned
Me: but those three reasons could be accomplished on the other planet. My question is specifically why we’re here on “earth”
Jared: What makes you believe that the Lord’s plan could have been accomplished on the “other planet?”
Me: because it meets the same conditions: it is physical, so we could have had bodies there; we were learning and growing there; we were happy there
Jared: Yes, but we came to a wall, per say, and in order to further progress, we needed to come here to receive our bodies. We don’t know that we could have had bodies there. Obviously we couldn’t because we came here to earth.
Jared: Obviously “earths” are important because the Lord has made trillions of them
Me: well, we know for a fact that elohim and his wives have bodies. So there’s no reason we couldn’t also have bodies there, right?
Jared: They are celestialized. There is a large difference
Me: only in material
Me: flesh, bone, and blood vs. superman flesh and bone
Me: but it’s all matter
Jared: They do have bodies of flesh and bone, however they are celestialized. It’s really that simple. We need to just accept that fact.
Me: I can accept that elohim has a celestial body. That’s no problem. But that doesn’t answer why we weren’t able to stay on his planet and get our bodies there
Me: since we’re going back there when we’re done anyway
Jared: What are you hoping to gain by this conversation? I am telling you what the plan is, but you not accepting the facts. We can see that us coming here is part of the process. We needed to experience specific things here on earth, that we wouldn’t have been able to experience in God’s presence.
Me: the glory of god is intelligence. I’m trying to gain understanding. You say we needed to experience specific things here on earth that we wouldn’t have been able to experience in god’s presence. There must be something more than just a body
Me: ‘cause if it was just a body we could have stayed there
Me: and we could’ve gotten a celestial body
Me: which is supposed to be even better than these meatsacks we’re walking around in, lol :)
Me: hello?
Jared: sorry
Jared: What is your question?
Jared: I have answered you and explained.
Jared: We needed to experience specific things here on earth, that we wouldn’t have been able to experience in God’s presence.
Jared: Like grief and pain
Jared: so that we would know what peace and joy was
Me: ok, but we experienced grief and pain during the war in heaven, right?
Me: we weren’t happy about 1/3 of everybody following Lucifer
Me: and we wouldn’t have known to follow elohim’s plan if the spirit hadn’t testified to us that it was right, so we were able to feel peace and joy
Jared: First off, we don’t refer to Heavenly Father as Elohim, so please stop saying it.
Jared: That is his name, yes, but it is sacred
Me: I didn’t mean to offend you
Jared: I know, I am not offened. I just wanted you to be aware. :)
Me: ok, can I shorten it to HF?
Jared: In this context, sure. Or you can just say God.
Me: Right on. So we wouldn’t have known to follow HF’s plan if the spirit hadn’t testified to us that it was right, so we were able to feel peace and joy. So on HF’s planet we had choices between good and evil, and the option to get bodies.
Jared: Julia, I can see that you enjoy knowledge, as do I, but it is very important to not keep thinking about things that we cannot answer here. It brings me peace to know that I will receive answers to the questions that I have.
Me: and we had spirit bodies, which joseph smith said is also matter, just more fine
Me: but if we can’t answer them what’s the point of having prophets? If there are unanswered questions that means they’re not doing their job, right?
Jared: God reveals his PLAN through his prophets. He tells us through them the things that we need to know and do in order to be happy here on earth, become clean, and then return to his presence.
Me: but the plan as currently revealed has a hugh gap in it. It hasn’t been able to answer the MOST BASIC of questions: why are we here on earth? All the reasons you gave earlier could have been, and were accomplished on HF’s planet
Me: huge*
Jared: Here’s an analogy
Jared: Growing up in your parents’ home will teach you many things, but it isn’t until you leave home that you can really learn what it means to be on your own. It is in the being on your own that you learn many more things. You can grow leaps and bounds.
Me: but we’re not on our own. That analogy doesn’t work because we have prophets who speak for the lord and tell us what he wants us to do. Your analogy only works if when you leave home one of your brothers follows you around on a walkie talkie to your parents and is constantly telling you what your parents want you to do. How do you grow that way?
Jared: You are impossible.
Me: excuse me?
Me: what a terrible thing to say!
Jared:…to explain things to
Jared: haha
Jared: Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing
Me: I’m just saying the analogy doesn’t work because we’re not really on our own
Jared: It makes me search for more ways to best explain truth to you
Me: if we were on our own we would have no prophets and no knowledge of a plan or any commandments
Jared: That is true.
Me: having prophets is absolutely no different than having jesus here
Me: right?
Jared: the Lord uses them to teach us because it is VERY hard to live here… on our own.
Me: there’s no difference between Thomas monson and jesus when Thomas monson is speaking for the lord
Me: and since mormons claim they have a perfect knowledge through the holy ghost that he is a prophet there is no faith involved. It’s no different than being back in the star system kolob
Me: except maybe the sky’s a different color. We don’t know that
Me: the only problem is that for some reason the prophets aren’t revealing incredibly relevant parts of the plan
Jared: The prophets are like a cell phone call home, you can say
Jared: They’re not like your lil’ bro following you around
Me: no, the holy ghost is like a cell phone calling home. The prophets are like brothers following you around speaking for your parents
Jared: What do you want from this chat?
Me: the ever-elusive answer to: why are we really here on this earth?
Jared: Okay, can you summarize what my answer to that has been so far?
Me: Sure
Me: 1. To get a body, which we could have gotten back home.
Me: 2. To be faced with good and evil choices, which we were back home
Me: 3. To learn & grow, which we did back home
Me: 4. To be happy, which we were back home
Me: 5. To have experiences (so far undisclosed) that we couldn’t have back home
Me: I think that’s it
Me: are we still connected?
Jared: yeah, we’re still connected
Jared: Numbers 3 and 4, I’ll agree with
Jared: But number 2…
Me: Lucifer’s plan vs. Jehova’s plan?
Jared: Having forgotten our premortal life and having to proceed by faith makes those decisions a whole different ballgame than they would have been back there with full knowledge.
Jared: And it’s that proceeding by faith that helps us grow
Jared: And as stated before, we may not know exactly why, but we don’t believe getting a body was possible back in Heavenly Father’s presence.
Me: but you’ve been told about your pre-mortal life and with the holy ghost there’s no faith required, and joseph smith said that spirit is matter, only more fine & pure so we definitely had bodies back home. We also know that evil can reside in the presence of the lord so that’s not an issue either.
Jared: No, we know that evil cannot reside in the presence of the Lord.
Me: are you sure? Isn’t Lucifer evil?
Jared: Yes, Lucifer is evil but he was cast out.
Me: Check out Job 1:6-12. It’s very clear that Lucifer still holds court with the lord whenever he pleases.
Jared: Well, I’m not sure how else to help you, honestly… I’ve been trying and it doesn’t seem like I have the answers you’re looking for. How much have you prayed about these concerns?
Me: a whole lot, still nothing
Me: and Thomas monson is decidedly quiet, as well
Me: maybe his cell phone is busted. lol. (just kidding)
Jared: Well, let’s think about it.. if you haven’t been going to church, putting forth the effort and proving your faith, do you think that you’re going to get many answers?
Me: that’s placing the cart before the horse. Why should I have to attend a church before I know it’s the right one? I would have to necessarily attend all churches if that were the case
Jared: Because you’re praying about this specific one!
Me: why is the holy ghost discriminating against me just because I’m not going to a single’s ward?
Jared: You need to put forth the effort. Test the Lord in these things. If you want to know that something is true or not you need to just simply live that commandment. Then the holy ghost will testify of the truth of it to you
Me: that’s backwards
Jared: No it’s not, my friend
Me: why don’t I do the same for Islam, then? I should test out Allah?
Me: take a pilgrimage to Mecca?
Me: that’s a double standard
Jared: How is it backwards? Do explain?
Me: Moroni simply says ask god in faith in the name of Christ and the holy ghost will tell you what’s up
Me: he hasn’t
Me: I’ve prayed numerous times, too many to count
Me: still nothing
Me: it’s HF’s silence that got me to start looking deeper into the doctrine
Jared: Ask God in FAITH. Faith without works is dead. In other words if you’re not putting forth the effort to learn; i.e., go to church, be around other saints, read the Book of Mormon, etc. then you are not praying in faith, essentially. Read Alma 32 again. The desire that you have had to learn about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is just the beginning. As you exercise your faith, then that desire will grow and grow. Your roots will grow deeper and deeper
Me: ok, well I’ve read the book of mormon several times, the D&C twice, the pearl of great price at least ten times, the bible 4 times all the way through; I’ve pondered all of it (obviously); I attended church for two years; I was around other members; and still nothing
Me: you’re shifting the burden of proof
Me: if the holy ghost answering my prayer is proof the book of mormon is true, then the holy ghost not answering my prayer is necessarily proof that the book of mormon is not true
Me: to say otherwise would be special pleading
Jared: Have you tried fasting?
Me: of course I’ve tried fasting
Me: I attended for 2 years. That’s like 24 fast & testimony meetings
Me: not that I attended every single one
Me: but yes, I tried my best and after all I could do I still got nothing
Me: did you ever get an answer to your prayers?
Jared: I have gotten answers to my prayers, yes. I do know that Jesus is the Christ. I do know that Heavenly Father is our father. I do know that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are words of God. Yes, Julia, I have received an answer. I honestly do not think about the things that I cannot get an answer to RIGHT NOW. I look at how simple the gospel is and take it for face value.
Me: so HF told you the book of mormon is true?
Jared: Yes
Jared: Yes he has..I cannot believe that you haven’t felt it
Me: how did you know it was really him? What happened?
Jared: I can’t really explain it. Simply put, it is just a pure peaceful feeling.
Me: so it’s emotional
Me: so you prayed and felt peaceful and took that as a sign?
Jared: I didn’t just take that as a “sign.” I prayed and just knew it was true. The way I can explain it to you is, like when you are learning something in school and all of a sudden you “get it.” The feeling that comes when you “get it.” That’s what I felt.
Jared: Along with that comes an absolute feeling of peace and comfort
Jared: It is a process, learning how to recognize the spirit
Me: ok but insight, peace, and comfort all come from your brain
Me: how can you know for sure, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it’s not all in your head?
Jared: Because it’s not in my head. It’s something I feel in my bossom
Me: something you “feel” in your bosom is electrical signals interpreted by your brain
Me: and hindus have known about the heart chakra for thousands of years
Me: it’s in the middle of your chest and burns when you quiet your mind
Me: it takes less than a minute. You can try it now
Jared: The only conclusion that I have come to is that you are using your brain way too much in efforts to get answers to things that only can be given to you via the spirit
Me: but you just said the spirit gave you feelings that can only be interpreted by the brain
Jared: You said that, not me
Me: how can you use your brain “too much?”
Me: don’t you see how that sounds?
Jared: Listen Julia. I have enjoyed this conversation, but I am unable to help you. Sorry
Me: ok, will since you weren’t able to actually answer my question you’re broken our deal and I don’t have to attend single’s ward
Jared: That is your choice
Jared: Have a nice weekend.
Me: It’s Elohim’s choice
Jared: yours
Me: quiet as he is
Jared: One day you will accept the truth
Me: he must be getting a kick out of this
Me: is that a threat?
Me: typical
Jared: One day you will see
Me: oOoOoO
Jared: Truth is truth. Since I know that I know that you will know one day
Me: but you don’t know it
Jared: I do
Me: you only believe that it’s not all in your head
Me: but you can’t prove it
Me: I can prove that it’s all in your head, though
Jared: I cannot scientifically explain anything to you, but I can explain how I feel.
Me: feelings are scientific
Me: it’s called a positive reinforcement feedback loop
Me: you set up a confirmation bias
Me: you were programmed to know what you should feel
Me: and that’s what you felt
Me: SURPRISE!
Jared: Ok
Jared: what about everyone else
Jared: Were they programmed
Jared: The 14+million world wide
Jared:???
Me: “everyone else” as in the hundreds of millions of muslims who read the kuran, pray to Allah, and receive a testimony that “there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet?”
Me: arguments from popularity are a logical fallacy
Me: and your population is .002% of the world
Jared: Muslims are muslims mainly because they are threatened if they change
Me: so are kolobians
Me: were you born in the church?
Jared: that doesn’t matter
Me: I’ll take that as a yes?
Jared: ok
Me: where in the world did you find the courage to believe EXACTLY what your parents told you to?
Me: how old were you when you bore your first testimony?
Me: 5?
Me: in primary, right?
Jared: Julia, you don’t know me. You don’t know my family life.
Me: that’s called brainwashing
Me: ok, then answer me this:
Me: did you ever “bear your testimony” before you received your so-called witness from the spirit?
Jared: I have to go, sorry.
The chat session has ended.
Sunday, November 6, 2011
Kolobian Theater Presents: Scripture Contradictions (Second Attempt)
A missionary will be with you shortly.
Agent [Malia] is ready to assist you.
Me: Hi Malia!
Malia: Hi Maria. My name is Malia. How may I help you?
Me: our names are so similar!
Malia: I know, I thought that same thing when I read yours. :)
Me: ok, well I’m a freshman so it’s my first year of seminary. My family converted to the church a couple years ago
Me: wow it seems like longer than that
Me: lol
Me: but I had some questions my mom couldn’t answer so I came here
Me: is that cool?
Malia: that is great. I would love to help you with your questions.
Me: ok awesome. My friend lucy is catholic and she doesn’t like the church much. I have her a book of mormon and she said a lot of it is plagiarized from the bible
Me: like the lord’s prayer
Me: I told her my seminary teacher said it’s not plagiarized
Me: it’s just that jesus said the same things to the nephrites as he did the jews
Me: right?
Malia: yes, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God. It will be the same gospel no matter what part of the world it is taught.
Malia: you are right. :0
Me: ok, that’s what I said. But that’s not good enough for her. She said if that’s the case why did joseph smith end up changing the words in his inspired translation of the bible?
Me: and I don’t know what to tell her :(
Me: I have to admit it does seem weird that the JST differs from the bom
Malia: the JST of what?
Me: the bible
Me: hold on, I have it here
Me: “lead us not into temptation” that’s how it reads in both the KJV and 3 Nephi 13:13
Me: but the JST of the bible says “and suffer us not to be led into temptation”
Me: she said either the Book of Mormon is wrong, or the JST is wrong
Me: and my parents didn’t know what to say
Malia: I see
Malia: okay… let me grab my Bible rally quick and look up a reference.
Me: ok cool. I think it’s Matthew 6:13
Malia: So the JST is not what the Bible used to say, it is the correct interpretation of what the Bible says. So Jesus said those words, but the JST in Matthew help us to understand what that phrase means.
Me: I don’t understand.
Me: How can I tell my friend that jesus didn’t know how to explain himself clearly? She’s going to call me crazy
Malia: I see your point…
Malia: just a moment.
Me: ok thanks
Me: I really appreciate your help
Malia: Every Lord’s prayer in the Bible is written a little bit different. They were all written by different prophets. It wasn’t that Jesus didn’t know how to explain himself clearly, but that it is easy for us to misinterpret things in the scriptures.
Malia: does that help?
Me: no, because it says the same thing in the book of mormon as it does in the KJV, word for word
Me: so they weren’t written differently. Jesus said the exact same thing to the nephrites
Malia: Have you read the Lord’s prayer in the book of Luke? The wording of them is a little bit different.
Me: but the book of mormon is translated perfectly, right?
Me: so whatever is in 3 Nephi is exactly what jesus said
Malia: Yes. The Book of Mormon is correct. But, the JST is not to change what Jesus said, but to help us understand the words that Jesus said. It isn’t changing the words, just making them more understandable to us.
Me: but that’s like saying jesus didn’t explain himself clearly and joseph smith had to clarify his words. No Christian is going to believe that
Malia: No, it is not like saying that. It is saying that there are lots of ways to misinterpret the Bible. There are loads of scriptures that are true, but the way they are interpreted can be false.
Me: but we’re talking about the book of mormon
Malia: it is just to make things more clear because of man’s error, not Jesus’ error.
Me: by changing matthew 6:13 he’s also changing 3 nephi 13:13
Me: because they say the exact same thing
Me: word for word
Malia: he is not changing it, he is just explaining it. For example, the scripture found in John 3:5…”born of the Spirit…”
Malia: we have been taught that refers to the gift of the Holy Ghost. It doesn’t mean we have changed the scripture. We just have had it explained to us.
Me: this is just crazy. Why would jesus say something twice that he knew would be so confusing that joseph smith would have to clarify it 1400 years later?
Me: if he knew that it wasn’t clear, why wouldn’t he just say the right thing the first time?
Me: I can understand what you’re saying about the bible
Me: that’s no problem. It’s been translated so many times
Me: but the book of mormon has only been translated once, and that was by a seer
Me: so it has to be perfect
Me: so basically you’re saying that in 3 nephi 13:13 jesus said something confusing and waited for joseph smith to clarify it for him?
Malia: No. Joseph Smith translated it for our benefit. Bottom line we have the Book of Mormon and the Bible together. All scripture is for our benefit. If you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon being true and of Joseph Smith as a prophet, you understand that this church is true. Translations do not change the words, but help us to understand. To be honest, I have wondered why sometimes the scriptures are written in the style they are. It would seem to have been easier to have the scriptures written in plain English. But they aren’t. So we use the Spirit in order to help us understand.
Me: I already know where this is going, though. She’s going to say that mormons think joseph smith is smarter than jesus, or that he plagiarized the new testament and then changed it later but couldn’t change the book of mormon because the translation was supposed to be perfect.
Me: “lead us not into temptation” and “suffer us not to be led into temptation” are two completely different phrases
Me: one is active and one is passive
Me: in the first god is doing the leading, in the second god is trying to keep us from being led
Me: how could jesus not know that?
Me: he’s perfect
Me: hold on, my teacher’s coming
Me: never mind. Coast is clear. Lol
Malia: Honestly Maria, I would just invite your friend to read and pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. The Holy Ghost won’t lie to her, and then she will have it straight from the source. We believe in modern revelation. There are many things hat has been revealed to us in these latter-days. That is why we still have prophets. To help us know what God says.
Me: that’s what my mom said. I told her that’s a copout and that’s when she told me to ask a missionary
Me: if I head “pray and read your scriptures” one more time I think I’m gonna scream
Me: hear*
Me: I can understand joseph smith clarifying the words of Isaiah, or another man, but not jesus. That just doesn’t make any sense.
Me: how could jesus, being perfect, also be confusing? And how could joseph smith, not being perfect, be more clear than jesus?
Malia: I know we have prophets for our benefit. Jesus is perfect, but we as imperfect beings need clarifications so that we can understand the perfect words of our Savior. There are some very confusing things. For example, Jesus taught in parables. It allows for us to be in tune with the Spirit as we hear the words or Prophets and read the words of the scriptures.
Me: is the lord’s prayer a parable?
Malia: Even on our Book of Mormon, there is a JST footnote for the Lord’s prayer
Me: that’s what doesn’t make sense. How could joseph smith be a better teacher than jesus?
Malia: No the Lord’s prayer is not a parable, but many scriptures are difficult to understand.
Me: if jesus mean to use a passive phrase, why did he use an active one?
Me: that’s like being deceitful, and jesus is not deceitful
Malia: maria, you bring up a good point. Bottom line is you have a testimony or you don’t. There are people all over the world that want to pick at every little thing in this church. The reason you keep hearing read and pray, is because that really is the answer. That is how you receive personal revelation. You can invite your friend. If she chooses not to, then okay. But that is the only way to get an answer.
Me: but that’s not fair. She believes the mormon god is a false god. He’s totally different than the god she worships. Heavenly father is a man living on a planet in the star system kolob. Her god is spirit and transcends creation. That’s like me asking if you’re willing to read the bhagavad gita and pray to Krishna if it’s true. You’d feel like you were betraying heavenly father
Malia: is she Christian?
Me: She’s catholic
Malia: Then have her pray to God. There is no your God, my God. Just invite her to pray to God.
Me: the bible doesn’t say god has a body or that he lives in the star system kolob.
Me: it’s a totally different god in her mind
Me: she believes in the trinity
Me: she says there is only one god
Me: we worship three gods
Malia: That is okay, Because we know that it is the same God. Think of all the other catholic converts out there. They all did it.
Me: but it’s not the same god at all
Malia: She can pray to God. She doesn’t need to understand all the deep doctrines on the nature of God to pray.
Me: they’re completely mutually exclusive god concepts
Me: you’re asking her to pray to elohim
Me: that’s not the god she believes in
Me: she believes the father, son, and holy spirit are one god
Malia: Are you afraid she will be offended?
Me: we believe in three separate gods
Me: this is what she told me when I asked her to pray with our family
Me: my dad asked me if I wanted her to say the prayer when she slept over a couple of months ago
Me: she said we wouldn’t like it if she did because she worships the trinity
Me: and we don’t
Me: I told her I’d give her an answer today on whether the book of mormon was correct or whether the JST was correct. Right now I don’t know what to tell her
Malia: All we can do is invite. I understand where you are coming from. It is difficult, and I think it is great you are sharing the gospel with her. Tell her that we believe the Bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. JST is just expounding on the scriptures as we also believe that Prophets can help us to understand and see things more clearly. This isn’t an either or situation. The church is true, and if your friend sincerely wants to know, she can pray to whoever she understands is God. God will answer her.
Me: but I can’t tell her that jesus didn’t know the difference between active vs. passive phrasing because I don’t believe that
Me: of course jesus knew the difference
Malia: You are right, don’t tell her that
Me: if he meant to say, “and suffer us not to be led into temptation” that what he would have said
Me: so it is an either/or situation
Me: either jesus was confused and joseph smith clarified it, which I don’t believe
Me: or jesus was right and the JST was wrong
Me: does that mean that joseph smith fell from grace?
Me: like david?
Me: I mean, he changed jesus’ words
Me: he changed the whole meaning
Me: it’s a big deal
Malia: The fact is, Jesus spoke it, and Joseph Smith helps us understand.
Me: helps us understand what?
Me: what jesus meant to say?
Me: ‘cause he said something completely different
Me: I’m so confused
Malia: I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. He helps us understand better Christ’s gospel.
Me: If you are confused, you can pray about it too :)
Me: oh my god
Me: did jesus mean to use the active phrase or didn’t he?
Me: did jesus believe god was doing the leading or didn’t he?
Me: class is almost over
Me: I’ve only got ten minutes
Malia: God is in charge
Me: ok, so jesus was right
Me: of course
Malia: Both are right.
Me: how?
Malia: I don’t think me explaining it again helped you.
Me: well, either god is doing the leading or someone else is doing the leading
Me: you said god is in charge. Does that mean god is doing the leading?
Malia: You can pray about that concern too.
Me: :|
Malia: I know God is in charge of his church.
Malia: I prayed to find that out.
Me: I feel like you’re intentionally trying not to answer my question
Me: what gives?
Malia: The answer is that Jesus was correct, and Joseph Smith was correct.
Me: that’s totally dishonest because they’re saying completely different things
Malia: And you and your friend can know that yourself if you ask God in sincere prayer.
Malia: They are saying the same thing.
Me: explain how
Me: explain how Leading is the same as Not Leading
Me: that’s like saying praying is the same as not praying
Malia: I am not sure where you are getting that?
Me: it’s completely illogical
Me: active vs. passive
Me: they completely change the meaning of the phrase
Malia: Can you please explain?
Me: Dog bites Boy vs. Dog watches Boy get bitted by another Dog
Me: in the first case the Dog bit the Boy
Me: in the second case the Dog didn’t bite the Boy
Me: another Dog did
Me: It’s pretty simple
Malia: So would it help if we looked at your example again…
Me: anything besides “pray about it” will help
Malia: :) Okay
Malia: bottom line, both are asking Heavenly Father to keep us from falling into temptation. Both are asking God to lead us away from temptation.
Me: your first point is correct: we don’t want to be led into temptation. Your second point is incorrect: jesus is asking god specifically not to lead us into temptation. Joseph is saying that jesus meant to ask god not to allow someone else to lead us into temptation. The point is, who’s doing the leading?
Malia: In both cases, not God.
Me: in jesus’ version it is god
Me: jesus is directing the prayer to god and says, “lead us not into temptation”
Me: that’s very clear
Me: unless jesus was praying to someone else
Malia: Maria, it is hard not to get hung up on the little wording. I am sorry, aren’t your ten minutes almost up?
Me: it’s lunchtime now and I don’t want to meet up with lucy anyway until I get this straight
Me: it’s not little wording
Me: it goes to joseph smith’s credibility as a prophet
Me: and translator
Malia: both are asking god to lead us away from temptation. What else really matters. :)
Me: it matters that mormons think jesus said things he didn’t mean to say
Me: I don’t believe that
Me: I don’t believe that jesus’ words need to be clarified
Me: I can’t believe that
Malia: Joseph Smith was a prophet, and my testimony of this is not going to go out the door because of something like this. The witness I received from the Holy Ghost is stronger than your argument presented.
Me: I’m not arguing with you
Me: I’m not trying to throw your testimony out the door
Me: I feel like you’re being defensive
Me: most people don’t rely on feelings. They rely on facts
Malia: No, I just don’t feel like I have helped you with your testimony and faith.
Me: if feelings are good for you, that’s great
Me: but I don’t think you can trust feelings. 2 + 2 must equal 4
Me: anyone can trick themselves into a testimony. Hundreds of millions of muslims have read the kuran, prayed to allah, and received a testimony that “there is no god but allah and Muhammad is his prophet”
Malia: maria, you said you were a member. Do you have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Me: I’m not sure anymore
Me: so much stuff doesn’t make sense
Malia: That is where faith comes in. I have my own questions about things. But even when I still have not received an answer to these things, my testimony has given me something to lean on, even when there are unanswered facts or questions. When was the last time you prayed to know Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Me: don’t you think faith is dishonest though? It’s just a fancy way of saying “make-believe” or “pretend”
Malia: Every other church tries to analyze the scriprrues, rationalize and logically explain things. We rely on the Spirit.
Me: every other church relies on the spirit, too
Me: that’s not true what you just said. That’s a gross overgeneralization
Me: how could you say that?
Me: we don’t have a monopoly on the holy ghost
Me: if there even is such a thing
Malia: maria, the bible talks about faith as a mustard seed. It is the first principle of the gospel. You are right, your friend can also receive a witness from the Holy Ghost if these things are true. That is what I have been trying to say. Don’t try to overly explain things to her, ask her to take it to the source.
Me: that’s totally dishonest though
Malia: The role of the Holy Ghost is to testify of truth. It says that in the Bible.
Me: asking her to pray with faith is like saying, “pretend it’s true for a little while and see how you feel”
Me: it’s like answering your own question before you’ve ever asked it
Malia: No, it is asking her to follow James 1:5
Me: of course you’ll feel good about it
Me: that’s how the brain works
Me: it’s ego preservation
Me: you’ve never considered that?
Malia: maria. More than your friend, you need to find out. As missionaries, we cannot help others if we do not believe it our self. Same goes for you, if you do not have a testimony, then you can’t help your friend gain one.
Malia: That is how it works.
Me: here’s my problem with that
Malia: don’t take my word for it.
Malia: ask God. If you lack wisdom, ask God.
Me: if I pray to god, that means I have to first believe that god exists (or else who am I praying to). Once I’ve made up my mind that a god exists then it won’t be honest to close my eyes and try to communicate telepathically with that god
Me: of course my brain will make me feel good about it
Malia: maria, do believe in God?
Me: I don’t think so. What’s the point? If there was real evidence that a god existed I wouldn’t have to believe
Me: I think I’m an atheist
Me: but I can’t tell my parents that
Me: they’d kick me out
Malia: okay, that is your problem. If you don’t know if someone is home, you knock on their door to find out.
Me: that’s a terrible analogy
Malia: you need to knock and see if someone answers
Me: and if no one answers you’ll say I don’t have enough faith
Me: I’ve prayed so many times I can’t count
Malia: no, I know that God will answer any sincere prayer. But you have to show that you want to know.
Me: so you’re telling me I haven’t been sincere? You don’t even know me
Me: how did god answer your prayer? Please don’t tell me with some vague feeling
Malia: if you don’t want to know or believe, it won’t matter if He is there or not.
Me: I want to know
Malia: You need to be sincere and have real intent.
Me: I don’t want to believe
Me: how did god answer your prayer?
Malia: Then it doesn’t really matter then, if you don’t want it.
Me: I want to know
Me: you’re not hearing me
Me: I don’t want to pretend, I want to know
Me: know*
Malia: Okay, how many times did you ask?
Me: I can’t even count. It’s been over two years
Malia: Can I share a scripture with you?
Me: I’d rather you tell me how god answered your prayer
Me: I’ve read the scriptures already
Malia: Mine came through a priesthood blessing.
Malia: I had a question for years that had never been answered.
Me: what was the question?
Malia: I prayed and prayed and prayed. And I never got an answer.
Malia: I would rather not share what my question was.
Me: who am I gonna tell?
Malia: It is personal. I felt like God was not answering my prayer.
Me: if I don’t know what the question was then your story is totally irrelevant. It could be something really mundane or it could be a real deal miracle
Malia: And I got a priesthood blessing for something completely different from a man I didn’t really even know. Maria, do you want me to finish the story?
Me: how can you finish the story if you haven’t shared the most important details? It’s like a shell with nothing inside of it
Me: it’s like saying, “just trust me”
Malia: The question is not he most important detail, it is how I got my answer that is what we are talking about.
Me: this is totally anonymous. I don’t know your full name, you don’t know mine
Me: there are untold numbers of angels and gods in heaven that already know your question
Malia: I still hold certain things sacred.
Me: so it’s really not a secret
Me: how can they know but not me?
Me: we’re sisters, rigth?
Me: right*
Malia: That is the thing. He didn’t know, but through the priesthood he still could answer my question.
Me: how can I know that unless I know what the question was?
Malia: Maria, I am sorry. I don’t feel like I am helping you. You don’t seem to want to hear what I have to say.
Me: that’s just it. I definitely DO want to hear it, but you’re not willing to tell me
Me: what’s sacred between sisters?
Malia: it is something that I have the right to keep personal. Maria. I think we better end this chat. I don’t feel like either one of us is getting anywhere.
Me: sounds like you had a perfectly normal concern that girls have and he gave some perfectly normal advice and you read too much into it and that’s why you don’t want to share it with me. Typical testimony mumbo-jumbo. If it’s mundane just call it “sacred” so it seems mysterious
Me: so my brain goes to work trying to fill the gap
Me: it happens every fast & testimony meeting
Malia: I hope you do not turn your back on God. He is there. Maria, He loves you. If you want to think it was a typical concern, fine. I have a testimony because I was open to the Holy Ghost. He will not force it on you.
Me: prove it.
Me: where’s the evidence?
Malia: That is not my purpose or my responsibility.
Malia: I hope you have a wonderful day.
The chat session has ended.
Agent [Malia] is ready to assist you.
Me: Hi Malia!
Malia: Hi Maria. My name is Malia. How may I help you?
Me: our names are so similar!
Malia: I know, I thought that same thing when I read yours. :)
Me: ok, well I’m a freshman so it’s my first year of seminary. My family converted to the church a couple years ago
Me: wow it seems like longer than that
Me: lol
Me: but I had some questions my mom couldn’t answer so I came here
Me: is that cool?
Malia: that is great. I would love to help you with your questions.
Me: ok awesome. My friend lucy is catholic and she doesn’t like the church much. I have her a book of mormon and she said a lot of it is plagiarized from the bible
Me: like the lord’s prayer
Me: I told her my seminary teacher said it’s not plagiarized
Me: it’s just that jesus said the same things to the nephrites as he did the jews
Me: right?
Malia: yes, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God. It will be the same gospel no matter what part of the world it is taught.
Malia: you are right. :0
Me: ok, that’s what I said. But that’s not good enough for her. She said if that’s the case why did joseph smith end up changing the words in his inspired translation of the bible?
Me: and I don’t know what to tell her :(
Me: I have to admit it does seem weird that the JST differs from the bom
Malia: the JST of what?
Me: the bible
Me: hold on, I have it here
Me: “lead us not into temptation” that’s how it reads in both the KJV and 3 Nephi 13:13
Me: but the JST of the bible says “and suffer us not to be led into temptation”
Me: she said either the Book of Mormon is wrong, or the JST is wrong
Me: and my parents didn’t know what to say
Malia: I see
Malia: okay… let me grab my Bible rally quick and look up a reference.
Me: ok cool. I think it’s Matthew 6:13
Malia: So the JST is not what the Bible used to say, it is the correct interpretation of what the Bible says. So Jesus said those words, but the JST in Matthew help us to understand what that phrase means.
Me: I don’t understand.
Me: How can I tell my friend that jesus didn’t know how to explain himself clearly? She’s going to call me crazy
Malia: I see your point…
Malia: just a moment.
Me: ok thanks
Me: I really appreciate your help
Malia: Every Lord’s prayer in the Bible is written a little bit different. They were all written by different prophets. It wasn’t that Jesus didn’t know how to explain himself clearly, but that it is easy for us to misinterpret things in the scriptures.
Malia: does that help?
Me: no, because it says the same thing in the book of mormon as it does in the KJV, word for word
Me: so they weren’t written differently. Jesus said the exact same thing to the nephrites
Malia: Have you read the Lord’s prayer in the book of Luke? The wording of them is a little bit different.
Me: but the book of mormon is translated perfectly, right?
Me: so whatever is in 3 Nephi is exactly what jesus said
Malia: Yes. The Book of Mormon is correct. But, the JST is not to change what Jesus said, but to help us understand the words that Jesus said. It isn’t changing the words, just making them more understandable to us.
Me: but that’s like saying jesus didn’t explain himself clearly and joseph smith had to clarify his words. No Christian is going to believe that
Malia: No, it is not like saying that. It is saying that there are lots of ways to misinterpret the Bible. There are loads of scriptures that are true, but the way they are interpreted can be false.
Me: but we’re talking about the book of mormon
Malia: it is just to make things more clear because of man’s error, not Jesus’ error.
Me: by changing matthew 6:13 he’s also changing 3 nephi 13:13
Me: because they say the exact same thing
Me: word for word
Malia: he is not changing it, he is just explaining it. For example, the scripture found in John 3:5…”born of the Spirit…”
Malia: we have been taught that refers to the gift of the Holy Ghost. It doesn’t mean we have changed the scripture. We just have had it explained to us.
Me: this is just crazy. Why would jesus say something twice that he knew would be so confusing that joseph smith would have to clarify it 1400 years later?
Me: if he knew that it wasn’t clear, why wouldn’t he just say the right thing the first time?
Me: I can understand what you’re saying about the bible
Me: that’s no problem. It’s been translated so many times
Me: but the book of mormon has only been translated once, and that was by a seer
Me: so it has to be perfect
Me: so basically you’re saying that in 3 nephi 13:13 jesus said something confusing and waited for joseph smith to clarify it for him?
Malia: No. Joseph Smith translated it for our benefit. Bottom line we have the Book of Mormon and the Bible together. All scripture is for our benefit. If you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon being true and of Joseph Smith as a prophet, you understand that this church is true. Translations do not change the words, but help us to understand. To be honest, I have wondered why sometimes the scriptures are written in the style they are. It would seem to have been easier to have the scriptures written in plain English. But they aren’t. So we use the Spirit in order to help us understand.
Me: I already know where this is going, though. She’s going to say that mormons think joseph smith is smarter than jesus, or that he plagiarized the new testament and then changed it later but couldn’t change the book of mormon because the translation was supposed to be perfect.
Me: “lead us not into temptation” and “suffer us not to be led into temptation” are two completely different phrases
Me: one is active and one is passive
Me: in the first god is doing the leading, in the second god is trying to keep us from being led
Me: how could jesus not know that?
Me: he’s perfect
Me: hold on, my teacher’s coming
Me: never mind. Coast is clear. Lol
Malia: Honestly Maria, I would just invite your friend to read and pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. The Holy Ghost won’t lie to her, and then she will have it straight from the source. We believe in modern revelation. There are many things hat has been revealed to us in these latter-days. That is why we still have prophets. To help us know what God says.
Me: that’s what my mom said. I told her that’s a copout and that’s when she told me to ask a missionary
Me: if I head “pray and read your scriptures” one more time I think I’m gonna scream
Me: hear*
Me: I can understand joseph smith clarifying the words of Isaiah, or another man, but not jesus. That just doesn’t make any sense.
Me: how could jesus, being perfect, also be confusing? And how could joseph smith, not being perfect, be more clear than jesus?
Malia: I know we have prophets for our benefit. Jesus is perfect, but we as imperfect beings need clarifications so that we can understand the perfect words of our Savior. There are some very confusing things. For example, Jesus taught in parables. It allows for us to be in tune with the Spirit as we hear the words or Prophets and read the words of the scriptures.
Me: is the lord’s prayer a parable?
Malia: Even on our Book of Mormon, there is a JST footnote for the Lord’s prayer
Me: that’s what doesn’t make sense. How could joseph smith be a better teacher than jesus?
Malia: No the Lord’s prayer is not a parable, but many scriptures are difficult to understand.
Me: if jesus mean to use a passive phrase, why did he use an active one?
Me: that’s like being deceitful, and jesus is not deceitful
Malia: maria, you bring up a good point. Bottom line is you have a testimony or you don’t. There are people all over the world that want to pick at every little thing in this church. The reason you keep hearing read and pray, is because that really is the answer. That is how you receive personal revelation. You can invite your friend. If she chooses not to, then okay. But that is the only way to get an answer.
Me: but that’s not fair. She believes the mormon god is a false god. He’s totally different than the god she worships. Heavenly father is a man living on a planet in the star system kolob. Her god is spirit and transcends creation. That’s like me asking if you’re willing to read the bhagavad gita and pray to Krishna if it’s true. You’d feel like you were betraying heavenly father
Malia: is she Christian?
Me: She’s catholic
Malia: Then have her pray to God. There is no your God, my God. Just invite her to pray to God.
Me: the bible doesn’t say god has a body or that he lives in the star system kolob.
Me: it’s a totally different god in her mind
Me: she believes in the trinity
Me: she says there is only one god
Me: we worship three gods
Malia: That is okay, Because we know that it is the same God. Think of all the other catholic converts out there. They all did it.
Me: but it’s not the same god at all
Malia: She can pray to God. She doesn’t need to understand all the deep doctrines on the nature of God to pray.
Me: they’re completely mutually exclusive god concepts
Me: you’re asking her to pray to elohim
Me: that’s not the god she believes in
Me: she believes the father, son, and holy spirit are one god
Malia: Are you afraid she will be offended?
Me: we believe in three separate gods
Me: this is what she told me when I asked her to pray with our family
Me: my dad asked me if I wanted her to say the prayer when she slept over a couple of months ago
Me: she said we wouldn’t like it if she did because she worships the trinity
Me: and we don’t
Me: I told her I’d give her an answer today on whether the book of mormon was correct or whether the JST was correct. Right now I don’t know what to tell her
Malia: All we can do is invite. I understand where you are coming from. It is difficult, and I think it is great you are sharing the gospel with her. Tell her that we believe the Bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. JST is just expounding on the scriptures as we also believe that Prophets can help us to understand and see things more clearly. This isn’t an either or situation. The church is true, and if your friend sincerely wants to know, she can pray to whoever she understands is God. God will answer her.
Me: but I can’t tell her that jesus didn’t know the difference between active vs. passive phrasing because I don’t believe that
Me: of course jesus knew the difference
Malia: You are right, don’t tell her that
Me: if he meant to say, “and suffer us not to be led into temptation” that what he would have said
Me: so it is an either/or situation
Me: either jesus was confused and joseph smith clarified it, which I don’t believe
Me: or jesus was right and the JST was wrong
Me: does that mean that joseph smith fell from grace?
Me: like david?
Me: I mean, he changed jesus’ words
Me: he changed the whole meaning
Me: it’s a big deal
Malia: The fact is, Jesus spoke it, and Joseph Smith helps us understand.
Me: helps us understand what?
Me: what jesus meant to say?
Me: ‘cause he said something completely different
Me: I’m so confused
Malia: I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. He helps us understand better Christ’s gospel.
Me: If you are confused, you can pray about it too :)
Me: oh my god
Me: did jesus mean to use the active phrase or didn’t he?
Me: did jesus believe god was doing the leading or didn’t he?
Me: class is almost over
Me: I’ve only got ten minutes
Malia: God is in charge
Me: ok, so jesus was right
Me: of course
Malia: Both are right.
Me: how?
Malia: I don’t think me explaining it again helped you.
Me: well, either god is doing the leading or someone else is doing the leading
Me: you said god is in charge. Does that mean god is doing the leading?
Malia: You can pray about that concern too.
Me: :|
Malia: I know God is in charge of his church.
Malia: I prayed to find that out.
Me: I feel like you’re intentionally trying not to answer my question
Me: what gives?
Malia: The answer is that Jesus was correct, and Joseph Smith was correct.
Me: that’s totally dishonest because they’re saying completely different things
Malia: And you and your friend can know that yourself if you ask God in sincere prayer.
Malia: They are saying the same thing.
Me: explain how
Me: explain how Leading is the same as Not Leading
Me: that’s like saying praying is the same as not praying
Malia: I am not sure where you are getting that?
Me: it’s completely illogical
Me: active vs. passive
Me: they completely change the meaning of the phrase
Malia: Can you please explain?
Me: Dog bites Boy vs. Dog watches Boy get bitted by another Dog
Me: in the first case the Dog bit the Boy
Me: in the second case the Dog didn’t bite the Boy
Me: another Dog did
Me: It’s pretty simple
Malia: So would it help if we looked at your example again…
Me: anything besides “pray about it” will help
Malia: :) Okay
Malia: bottom line, both are asking Heavenly Father to keep us from falling into temptation. Both are asking God to lead us away from temptation.
Me: your first point is correct: we don’t want to be led into temptation. Your second point is incorrect: jesus is asking god specifically not to lead us into temptation. Joseph is saying that jesus meant to ask god not to allow someone else to lead us into temptation. The point is, who’s doing the leading?
Malia: In both cases, not God.
Me: in jesus’ version it is god
Me: jesus is directing the prayer to god and says, “lead us not into temptation”
Me: that’s very clear
Me: unless jesus was praying to someone else
Malia: Maria, it is hard not to get hung up on the little wording. I am sorry, aren’t your ten minutes almost up?
Me: it’s lunchtime now and I don’t want to meet up with lucy anyway until I get this straight
Me: it’s not little wording
Me: it goes to joseph smith’s credibility as a prophet
Me: and translator
Malia: both are asking god to lead us away from temptation. What else really matters. :)
Me: it matters that mormons think jesus said things he didn’t mean to say
Me: I don’t believe that
Me: I don’t believe that jesus’ words need to be clarified
Me: I can’t believe that
Malia: Joseph Smith was a prophet, and my testimony of this is not going to go out the door because of something like this. The witness I received from the Holy Ghost is stronger than your argument presented.
Me: I’m not arguing with you
Me: I’m not trying to throw your testimony out the door
Me: I feel like you’re being defensive
Me: most people don’t rely on feelings. They rely on facts
Malia: No, I just don’t feel like I have helped you with your testimony and faith.
Me: if feelings are good for you, that’s great
Me: but I don’t think you can trust feelings. 2 + 2 must equal 4
Me: anyone can trick themselves into a testimony. Hundreds of millions of muslims have read the kuran, prayed to allah, and received a testimony that “there is no god but allah and Muhammad is his prophet”
Malia: maria, you said you were a member. Do you have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Me: I’m not sure anymore
Me: so much stuff doesn’t make sense
Malia: That is where faith comes in. I have my own questions about things. But even when I still have not received an answer to these things, my testimony has given me something to lean on, even when there are unanswered facts or questions. When was the last time you prayed to know Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Me: don’t you think faith is dishonest though? It’s just a fancy way of saying “make-believe” or “pretend”
Malia: Every other church tries to analyze the scriprrues, rationalize and logically explain things. We rely on the Spirit.
Me: every other church relies on the spirit, too
Me: that’s not true what you just said. That’s a gross overgeneralization
Me: how could you say that?
Me: we don’t have a monopoly on the holy ghost
Me: if there even is such a thing
Malia: maria, the bible talks about faith as a mustard seed. It is the first principle of the gospel. You are right, your friend can also receive a witness from the Holy Ghost if these things are true. That is what I have been trying to say. Don’t try to overly explain things to her, ask her to take it to the source.
Me: that’s totally dishonest though
Malia: The role of the Holy Ghost is to testify of truth. It says that in the Bible.
Me: asking her to pray with faith is like saying, “pretend it’s true for a little while and see how you feel”
Me: it’s like answering your own question before you’ve ever asked it
Malia: No, it is asking her to follow James 1:5
Me: of course you’ll feel good about it
Me: that’s how the brain works
Me: it’s ego preservation
Me: you’ve never considered that?
Malia: maria. More than your friend, you need to find out. As missionaries, we cannot help others if we do not believe it our self. Same goes for you, if you do not have a testimony, then you can’t help your friend gain one.
Malia: That is how it works.
Me: here’s my problem with that
Malia: don’t take my word for it.
Malia: ask God. If you lack wisdom, ask God.
Me: if I pray to god, that means I have to first believe that god exists (or else who am I praying to). Once I’ve made up my mind that a god exists then it won’t be honest to close my eyes and try to communicate telepathically with that god
Me: of course my brain will make me feel good about it
Malia: maria, do believe in God?
Me: I don’t think so. What’s the point? If there was real evidence that a god existed I wouldn’t have to believe
Me: I think I’m an atheist
Me: but I can’t tell my parents that
Me: they’d kick me out
Malia: okay, that is your problem. If you don’t know if someone is home, you knock on their door to find out.
Me: that’s a terrible analogy
Malia: you need to knock and see if someone answers
Me: and if no one answers you’ll say I don’t have enough faith
Me: I’ve prayed so many times I can’t count
Malia: no, I know that God will answer any sincere prayer. But you have to show that you want to know.
Me: so you’re telling me I haven’t been sincere? You don’t even know me
Me: how did god answer your prayer? Please don’t tell me with some vague feeling
Malia: if you don’t want to know or believe, it won’t matter if He is there or not.
Me: I want to know
Malia: You need to be sincere and have real intent.
Me: I don’t want to believe
Me: how did god answer your prayer?
Malia: Then it doesn’t really matter then, if you don’t want it.
Me: I want to know
Me: you’re not hearing me
Me: I don’t want to pretend, I want to know
Me: know*
Malia: Okay, how many times did you ask?
Me: I can’t even count. It’s been over two years
Malia: Can I share a scripture with you?
Me: I’d rather you tell me how god answered your prayer
Me: I’ve read the scriptures already
Malia: Mine came through a priesthood blessing.
Malia: I had a question for years that had never been answered.
Me: what was the question?
Malia: I prayed and prayed and prayed. And I never got an answer.
Malia: I would rather not share what my question was.
Me: who am I gonna tell?
Malia: It is personal. I felt like God was not answering my prayer.
Me: if I don’t know what the question was then your story is totally irrelevant. It could be something really mundane or it could be a real deal miracle
Malia: And I got a priesthood blessing for something completely different from a man I didn’t really even know. Maria, do you want me to finish the story?
Me: how can you finish the story if you haven’t shared the most important details? It’s like a shell with nothing inside of it
Me: it’s like saying, “just trust me”
Malia: The question is not he most important detail, it is how I got my answer that is what we are talking about.
Me: this is totally anonymous. I don’t know your full name, you don’t know mine
Me: there are untold numbers of angels and gods in heaven that already know your question
Malia: I still hold certain things sacred.
Me: so it’s really not a secret
Me: how can they know but not me?
Me: we’re sisters, rigth?
Me: right*
Malia: That is the thing. He didn’t know, but through the priesthood he still could answer my question.
Me: how can I know that unless I know what the question was?
Malia: Maria, I am sorry. I don’t feel like I am helping you. You don’t seem to want to hear what I have to say.
Me: that’s just it. I definitely DO want to hear it, but you’re not willing to tell me
Me: what’s sacred between sisters?
Malia: it is something that I have the right to keep personal. Maria. I think we better end this chat. I don’t feel like either one of us is getting anywhere.
Me: sounds like you had a perfectly normal concern that girls have and he gave some perfectly normal advice and you read too much into it and that’s why you don’t want to share it with me. Typical testimony mumbo-jumbo. If it’s mundane just call it “sacred” so it seems mysterious
Me: so my brain goes to work trying to fill the gap
Me: it happens every fast & testimony meeting
Malia: I hope you do not turn your back on God. He is there. Maria, He loves you. If you want to think it was a typical concern, fine. I have a testimony because I was open to the Holy Ghost. He will not force it on you.
Me: prove it.
Me: where’s the evidence?
Malia: That is not my purpose or my responsibility.
Malia: I hope you have a wonderful day.
The chat session has ended.
Kolobian Theater Presents: Scripture Contradictions
Please continue to hold for the next available missionary.
Agent [Nate] is ready to assist you.
Nate: How can I help you?
Me: Hi Nate, I had some questions about the book of mormon containing verbatim verses from the King James Version of the bible.
Me: do you know why that is?
Nate: Well, some of those would be the quotes from Isaiah, and other quotes from Jesus Christ. I would suggest a study of both carefully. It can be insightful to see where the differences lie.
Me: yeah, I have actually. That’s why I ask
Me: regarding the quotes from jesus Christ, like the lord’s prayer
Me: they’re exactly the same
Me: word for word
Me: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”
Nate: Right. When we keep in mind that the Nephites only had the Book of Mormon and not the books of the Bible, it makes sense that God says the same things to one people as another
Me: ok, so jesus said the exact same thing to the jews and the nephites, word for word?
Nate: Right.
Nate: I would think that God, being perfect, has a perfect memory
Me: then why does the Joseph Smith Translation of the new testament change the prayer to say, “And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil?”
Me: is the book of mormon wrong, then?
Nate: Could you give me the exact verse you’re quoting?
Me: matthew 6:13
Nate: And the verse in the Book of Mormon?
Me: hold on, I just had it
Nate: Now, Cindy, I feel like you’ve been slightly dishonest with me.
Me: why’s that?
Nate: You first said it was word for word, but I feel like you said that specifically so you could bring up the JST verse.
Me: of course
Me: how’s that dishonest?
Nate: Ok, I’m ending the chat
Me: why?
Nate: If you are here to argue rather than to ask basic questions about our beliefs
Me: because you know either the book of mormon was plagiarized or it was wrong?
Nate: SINCER questions
Nate: *sincere
Me: that’s pretty basic
Nate: Because, I don’t cast what I consider holy to someone who is here to argue
Me: it goes to the credibility of joseph smith
Nate: Good bye
Me: one man’s sacred cow is another man’s hamburger
The chat session has ended.
Agent [Nate] is ready to assist you.
Nate: How can I help you?
Me: Hi Nate, I had some questions about the book of mormon containing verbatim verses from the King James Version of the bible.
Me: do you know why that is?
Nate: Well, some of those would be the quotes from Isaiah, and other quotes from Jesus Christ. I would suggest a study of both carefully. It can be insightful to see where the differences lie.
Me: yeah, I have actually. That’s why I ask
Me: regarding the quotes from jesus Christ, like the lord’s prayer
Me: they’re exactly the same
Me: word for word
Me: “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”
Nate: Right. When we keep in mind that the Nephites only had the Book of Mormon and not the books of the Bible, it makes sense that God says the same things to one people as another
Me: ok, so jesus said the exact same thing to the jews and the nephites, word for word?
Nate: Right.
Nate: I would think that God, being perfect, has a perfect memory
Me: then why does the Joseph Smith Translation of the new testament change the prayer to say, “And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil?”
Me: is the book of mormon wrong, then?
Nate: Could you give me the exact verse you’re quoting?
Me: matthew 6:13
Nate: And the verse in the Book of Mormon?
Me: hold on, I just had it
Nate: Now, Cindy, I feel like you’ve been slightly dishonest with me.
Me: why’s that?
Nate: You first said it was word for word, but I feel like you said that specifically so you could bring up the JST verse.
Me: of course
Me: how’s that dishonest?
Nate: Ok, I’m ending the chat
Me: why?
Nate: If you are here to argue rather than to ask basic questions about our beliefs
Me: because you know either the book of mormon was plagiarized or it was wrong?
Nate: SINCER questions
Nate: *sincere
Me: that’s pretty basic
Nate: Because, I don’t cast what I consider holy to someone who is here to argue
Me: it goes to the credibility of joseph smith
Nate: Good bye
Me: one man’s sacred cow is another man’s hamburger
The chat session has ended.
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